I'm going to open the can of worms. Feel free to delete if you really think this is off-topic mods. But was politics and /pol/ shit really as bad as it is today in tabletop?33 year old here, did tabletop at a shop and online shit during the mIRC days when I was a teen. I remember politics discussion was always a thing, but it typically boiled down to a few guys arguing, trying to find some level of objective truth, and if it got annoying the admin/mods just throwing a "Alright you guys are getting annoying drop it now." Like the worst it ever got from what I saw, "Shit man I disagree with everything you say but whatever let's play."Now today I see people making games and using political alignment as a measure if someone can get in a fucking game or not. I see games falling apart because of disagreements on opinions on shit like Trump and Israel. Literally had some pussy from this board begging a GM not to let me in and threatening to leave because I argued with him on some shit, so I just told the GM it's fine and let the little faggot have his game without my presence mindbreaking him.Like genuinely what the fuck. Did I just luck out on my groups 20 years ago, or have people turned in to huge snowflake bitches?
>>97670110 (OP)Bit of both.The internet has certainly coddled snowflakes into surrounding themselves with only people who think like them.It's one thing to find a community that has a shared interest. It's entirely another to filter your social circle by political identity.This is truly a 'both sides' thing though. MAGA folks will usually socially outcast non MAGA. But it's the left that has championed cancel culture.I'd say overall the more conservative side of the tent is OK with being friends with the more liberal side of the tent. They're ok with people being idiots, and they'll call them idiots. More comfortable with abrasiveness and discomfort.
>>97670110 (OP)Being able to count on getting on with strangers is relatively new, historically speaking. Things are just descending back into good old dumb tribalism of various sorts.
>>97670184I actually think that lots of cultures developed hospitality customs to prevent everyone going Grug on strangers all the time, but those date back to antiquity so you must be thinking hunter-gatherer
>>97670110 (OP)>"Shit man I disagree with everything you say but whatever let's play."This is less common now. Not just games, most forms of socialization seem to have less and less of this approach. Sucks.
>>97670110 (OP)Radicalization and bringing politics into everything is a tactic used by Epstein and his goons, they talk about it in the emails and everything, it also has roots going back to Soviet infiltration of spaces, social Marxism and all that jazz. So no this isn't what it was like before, things HAVE gotten worse, it's largely been on purpose.I hang out primarily with lefties, but they themselves are not snowflakes and don't actually care about this shit. We're all 90s kids though and grew up with politically incorrect humor to bash the right, so it's fine, been gaming with them for years and years now. It's not like a lot of these people didn't mindbreak themselves, there are plenty of insane lefties, but my friend group hasn't fallen to that and we actively keep those types out while we include sexual, mental, verbal, and physical abuse as common themes and backstories IF the situation calls for it. And we largely don't let politics get in the way of the group itself, since we just play characters and tropes and media we like. Nobody is making socialism the overriding goal while we kill fucking vampires we're historical knights or crazy magic people that do not have a concept of Enlightenment Era thought and try to play into the character.
>>97670208I'm talking relatively. We're pretty far divorced from even early 20th century tribalism, and farther yet from cultures where exile meant death, despite hospitality customs.
>>97670211The leftists are right though, everything is political. You can't just permit people to have different views and criticize your religion or organisation: no one wants to become part of something that refuses to defend itself or take itself seriously.
>>97670210Thank fuck my friends aren't like this, I'm way more rightist than most of them but we just have spirited debates every now and then and get on as usual
>>97670110 (OP)Don't let anyone gaslight you into thinking it was always like this. The biggest sticking point used to be the neckbeard that couldn't figure out hygiene
>>97670165>I'd say overall the more conservative side of the tent is OK with being friends with the more liberal side of the tent.Yeah because they'd be shut out of culture, society and anything fun if they weren't. When was the last time you heard of a conservative film or fantasy book being loved by everyone?
>>97670210People tend not to like people who're ambivalent towards the deaths and suffering of their friends and who they hold dear. Perhaps that's an alien concept to people who've not had to talk and get along with people different than them, but this is the position of someone who's seen the political reality of the world.
>>97670265>When was the last time you heard of a conservative film or fantasy book being loved by everyone?I think that's kind of a weird metric to use
>>97670271Can't help but notice all the suffering and death you're doing fuck all about right now while posting on 4chan. Your idealism is a bad joke.
>>97670273Most great art is created by liberals or leftists because creativity is given a chance to grow and be nurtured outside of rigid hierarchies. So no, you're wrong.
>>97670284Please tell me how those are exclusive activities.
>>97670286Mmyeah but then you have Heinlein who wrote a book about Asian-killing death rays, Mormons like Sanderson, etc. To be quite honest I don't really know many authors' political or religious leanings
>>97670265A genuinely good criticism of modern conservatism is that we can't produce art, or much of anything at all. I think this is partially a product of the fact that the rightwing identity is negative as a prerequisite: it's a rejection of progressivism and possibly liberalism going back to the 19th century. We don't really have much in common with each other otherwise, except maybe fear about the future.That being said, It's also obvious that there has been a continuous degeneration in the quality of popular art which has accelerated recently, and is less and less capable of pushing a coherent and attractive progressive message. Popular art is probably destined to be slop for now and in the near future.
>>97670110 (OP)>Literally had some pussy from this board begging a GM not to let me in and threatening to leave because I argued with him on some shit,That's what happens when one side is convinced they are the sole arbiters of morality, you're either like them, or you're the enemy, and the enemy is everything bad in the world. Every bad thing a person could do or think, the enemy is. And if you don't hit the right checklist, say and do the right things when they demand it, you're against them. Not that you merely disagree on some things, you are their total opposite in every way and thus deserve death, because in their eyes you are as bad as the worst monsters in human history. They don't attach the bad ideology labels to you because they think you actually are those things, they do it so they can justify your murder to themselves.
>>97670286>Most great art is created by liberalsMost great art has been produced by people modern liberals would hate.
>>97670286>Most great art is created by liberals or leftists because communists have subverted every institution and use it to try and blackball anyone they don't like for the last 60 yearsFixed your small typo there friend
>>97670302Popular art is always slop. That has been and will be a fact. Most people want easily defined characters doing cool action. It's not an unreasonable want from what you would wanna spend your free time doing.But at the same time it's very easy to access art that requires some rigor from your end, and find like-minded people to discuss it with. I engage with them on a regular basis instead of looking to whatever is most popular.
>>97670110 (OP)It's the world that changeged, traditional games got cought in the crossfire like everything else. People got dangerously too uppity with OWS so the elite rolled out the Culture War in full force through social media, given that smatphones made everyone terminally online you got current days consequences.
>>97670316The oversanitization of media is going too far, see Eclipse Phase 2e and suchI sometimes go to r*ddit because this board is dead and still have to conclude it's infinitely worse, because everything must be looked at through some weird anti-fascist pro-trans distorting lens there
>>97670110 (OP)>because I argued with him on some shitWhy don't you explain to us what you said, if it's supposedly nothing too crazy?The other fact is that TTRPG campgaigns will go on for a long, long time, definitly weeks, probably months, maybe even years. Comitting to join a campaign is comitting to a form of relationship. And quite frankly, people don't want to feel bad, they want to feel good. TTRPGs are by many metrics, escapism. People want to escape from the real world, explore somewhere else, even if it's for a few hours.You're going to have to accept the fact that not everyone will want to spend prolonged amounts of time with you. This is absolutely true for absolutely everybody. If, however, you find yourself repeatedly encountering people who repeatedly choose to turn away from you, well, you should probably look in the mirror, do a bit of soul-searching.Do you value these social interactions more than discussing politics? Have you ever heard of, "hiding your power-level?" If fucking turbo-autists can stop sperging out about their hedgehog fanfic, why can't you?
>>97670110 (OP)I honestly believe the internet has broken the minds of most of the people using it. It cultivates a hostile climate as it allows one to express hostility with no real repercussions. If I insult someone in real life, I could face backlash or physical harm, but online, there's no such issue. There could be the issue of someone reporting what you say to your employer, but that's so damn rare, and really unlikely to do anything if you are smart about it. Hell, if you do it in a way that your peers enjoy, you'll get attention and praise, and a large portion of our behaviors are attention seeking as we are social animals. So being combative is rewarded. Further, anger is addictive. Social media sites figured this out and its how they keep people engaged, constantly showing them things that make them upset, since it keeps people using to keep seeing. It's why culture war shit is so popular, all sides of the aisle getting mad about what the other group is doing at all times. And since most people just doom scroll these days, its eaten up so much of people's time, they're just angry, upset, and engaged all day. Its a poison of the mind. People don't think the internet matters much or its real, but the influence on our thoughts, and the behaviors it fosters bleed into reality, subtly at first then overtly after overuse. And too much screen time is linked to depression, anxiety, and mood disorders, so that doesn't help with behaviors either.
>>97670338You don't really get the progressive mindset then. Everything New is good, because if it's New then it's the result of Progress. If it's Old then it's bad, because it comes from a time with less Progress. If something Old is ever allowed to be seen as good, then that means Progress is not always better, which is an existential threat to the progressive mind. It's why "make America great again" makes them so mad, it means things used to be better than they are now, which is an attack on their identity, their very personhood. Because progressiveism is a cult.
>>97670319Let's pretend this is true. There is a minority of right-wing creatives desperately wanting to make great set.There would be a cottage industry of right-wingers making low-budget art that their audience would enjoy.Instead what we see is.. nothing.I'd point out right wing art I've seen in the wild but I know once I do I'll be subject to>Heh, stupid liberal, that faction of rightwingers are way too liberal and stupid for us, unlike my faction that hates two minorities a lot more and have no art to speak of!
>>97670347>Why don't you explain to us what you said, if it's supposedly nothing too crazyNot OP, but the fact that you feel the need to know what his actual stance is in order to accept his story speaks volumes in and of itself, doesn't it?
>>97670350>It's why "make America great again" makes them so mad, it means things used to be better than they are nowNo, MAGA is also retarded. I'm a radical centrist and think both extremes are wrong
>>97670334>Popular art has always been slopnot true at all. It's hard to believe but in the west classical music was once the most popular form of music, Jazz replaced it, rock replaced jazz, rap/hiphop has replaced rock. There is an obvious degeneration here. The same thing happened in dance, the waltz was once regarded as immoral and inelegant, we made our way through to the 'black bottom' and right on to twerking. Abstract and modern art are rightfully widely derided. The slop is a consequence of civilizational decline, a reversal of the progress made from the dark ages through to the romantic period, and it will continue to get worse, until you find yourself mourning what was to your grandchildren, if they listen, if you have any.
>>97670356Left wing art is fucking ass>source>everything wizards of the coast has ever made, everything disney has made since the arch conservative Walt stopped being their guiding principle>even Tolkein fantasy is ass now that the fucking Monarchist Tolkein is no longer at the centerpoint of itMost scifi is downstream of Heinlein and that guy was a libertarian right winger. Most actual art has its root in right wing philosophy, and quite a lot of drawn art is also historically right wing. Anyone with a opinion right of Obama gets cancelled and thrown out of Hollywood and renounced in art and academia these days. Historically right wingers, even some pretty extreme right wingers for their times who were not liberal, created art. This modern in the last 20 years idea that art is an inherently left wing idea falls flat on its face if you just look at history. All art that still exists today is going to be squarely sourced in monarchism and arch conservatism from the most elite of our forbearers, globally.>>97670347No one would attend your funeral if you died today.
>>97670356Yeah you're right, nothing impactful that anyone's ever heard of. Also, any art created more than, say, 20 years ago, was made by people that modern liberals, would call conservative. So, Picasso, Van Goh, Shakespeare, Michelangelo, Da Vinci, Dali, almost every famous author that's not still writing... I think Steven King is basically the only modern liberal famous artist that's actually made anything good.
>>97670373The fact you think MAGA is extreme tells me you're not a centrist at all. If you were a centrist you'd be indifferent.
>>97670347He was whining about corpos and rich people, and how they all should be killed and burned down. I said I'm pretty sure there are better ways to fix problems than doing "commie shit." He got extremely upset about the commie part because he's an alt righter, said I haven't read a single book, and when I asked him what he thinks communism is he just went on calling me a retard and said he blocked me.A month later or so I was trying to get in a game he and I share our little social media place with, and GM basically told me the situation and I said whatever it's fine I'm already in two games.
>>97670393He sounds like he believes the same things I do. He should go to the gym though.
>>97670356Have you considered that a cottage industry is, by nature, obscure and local? I've known plenty of embittered chuds who make shit and run games, but who's gonna platform them? Hell, I've known dudes who are afraid of getting too much attention, lest some social media addict notices them and starts a harassment campaign. Most LGS can't afford to stick their neck out for anyone, so you can't expect institutional support. It's a weird time to live in.
>>97670391>If you were a centrist you'd be indifferent.That's not what centrism means but I understand in American hyperpolarized politics it's hard to understand. It's just taking policies from both sides of the aisle but most center parties are trash at making an appealing mix
>>97670375The thing is, you're seeing through a rich person's view of the past.Most poor people weren't sitting in concert halls listening to classical music or dancing waltzsThey were doing regional dances and songs, and whatever song they can sing along to in the pub.Shakespeare is an excellent point of reference, a lot of murder and humor for the commons.The point is the commons want blood, sex and crude humor. They get that from mass marketed films.
>>97670416Maybe I phrased it wrong. "Extreme" is a relative term. The farther right or left an idea is on the political spectrum, from the point of view of the observer, the more extreme it seems. The MAGA movement is, relative to actual right wing extremism like libertarianism, considerably moderate. But from the point of view of someone left of center, moderate conservativism seems extreme.
>>97670401Yes. Plenty of indie films manage to get a release doing this. There's entire streaming services dedicated to right-wing art now, and none of them manage to rise above boomer grievance slop.
>>97670427For me I like free trade along with socialist concepts like welfare and the MAGA approach to trade is more like Maoism mixed with robber barons so I can't really abide that
>>97670110 (OP)You thought your niche hobby was immune to impending hard times?
>>97670435Stop being a filthy tankie
>>97670435It's overcompensation, even the most left wing of media outlets said Trump was doing the right thing tossing out mad foreign trade deals in his first term. Things were allowed to get so bad that the healing process has become painful, the issue is the same people that are responsible for the situation, are the ones complaining about the solutions that their actions necessitated.
>>97670454*bad foreign trade deals
>>97670454He caused the present Iran crisis by tossing out the nuke deal during Trump 1 because he thought diplomacy was for faggots, but anywayDo Varg's RPGs have those ideological purity textboxes the way nu-WoD etc. do? Anybody read them?
>>97670384>>everything wizards of the coast has ever madeLiberal money makers>Walt stopped being their guiding principleBrad Bird's put out great stuff in his time.>This modern in the last 20 years idea that art is an inherently left wing idea falls flat on its face if you just look at history>>97670389Notice how there's no good modern right wing art for you or ANY one agreeing with you to point to. All you have is vague gesturings towards antiquity which isn't even right.>Passion of the ChristIt's okay at best.
>>97670473King of the Hill and Smiling Friends mog any liberal story ever told.
>>97670470>He caused the present Iran crisisIran causes that crisis, and the deal Obama made was utter garbage. Also you can't negotiate with a death cult, diplomacy was never a viable solution.>>97670473>there's no good modern right wing art for you or ANY one agreeing with you to point toThere's no good modern art in general.
>>97670487>King of the HillHank constantly has to rethink his biases It's not right wing even if Mike Judge was>Smiling friendsBuddy it's made by an edgy ex-newgrounds guy and an Australian I would not take whatever politics in it at face value.
>>97670501>Hank constantly has to rethink his biasesThis is where the left fails. If you ever change your mind or think you're not always right from the start, you're betraying your ideals. This is why you people look like a cult to us.
>>97670507Does he ever get more right wing?Not really.
>>97670491>There's no good modern art in general.Not true at allThere's plenty of great art. You're upset none of it agreed with you.
>>97670512You're still doing it, dude. Hank's either far right, or he's not right wing at all. All in, or he's out. Cult mentality. We don't see things that way, my guy. Simple as. Also most of the time, Hank's biases are supported by the show, he's challenged but usually proven right in the end.
>>97670516>You're upset none of it agreed with youNo, it's just bad.
>>97670110 (OP)yeah, the sjw are cancer and they ruined western civilization.
>>97670420The poor were doing the waltz: the waltz started as a folk dance and was adopted unchanged by the upper classes after some resistance. Shakespeare was not merely crude jokes, and there was more than that which attracted the poor to his work. Classical music and appreciation for 'rich people art' did descend down to the poor, they understood its value and weren't merely interested in base things as you claim, or separated in their own class culture: there was mutual intercourse and cultural exchange which was valued by both the rich and poor. You can argue that the appreciation and desire for beautiful, spiritual & meaningful things above the base/material is a desire concocted for the poor and imposed by the upper classes but this is a kind of minimization of the agency and taste of the poor, and doesn't hold up to any scrutiny.
It's more of a thing now for sure. But honestly I think it's fine to not play with folks who you can not get along with.
>>97670559>Shakespeare was not merely crude jokes, and there was more than that which attracted the poor to his work.Nobody said it was just crude jokes.>weren't merely interested in base things as you claim>kind of minimization of the agency and taste of the poorWhen someone markets something with a wide ranging appeal, it is not possible for them to have no other appeal. There's always themes and plots that can be intellectualised. But the people working in factories for most of the day will not be there for the mental rigor. They're going to want to laugh, and watch an enemy be destroyed.
>>97670507I could say the same about the other side of the divideGamewise it's thankfully never been a problem, one of my friends develops bad TDS whenever Trump is in power but he has the sense to keep it out of gaming nights
>>97670578Again, I think this is a misunderstanding of the character of the lower classes. The aging poor man laments the decline of the culture just as much as the rich man, he was and is capable of appreciating the things you claim are not in his character.
>>97670110 (OP)The problem we been having in hobbies and social groups is we used to have a gentleman's agreement to NOT outright bring up politics, religion, and all. However once people stop gatekeeping the bad actors and they force themselves in with the whole "always fans of trending hobby/game" but never said it and sometime even said they weren't before it went mainstream, happen to get push into a creative or leadership role and starts changing everything into a political soapbox. Calling the creator, old guard, and fans racist/sexist/etc. Race/sex/etc changing the characters or adding new OCs to replace them and making them the "bestest evar!" Hell even changing the lore around to fit their viewpoints or at least try to. Yet when fans call it out, you hear the classic "It's not for you" by the people who came in, changed everything and push "X is for EVERYONE." While always seeming to removing anyone right of Mao or Bernie Sanders. Then try to cancel them when they make their own IPs.At the end of the day. You had a side abused the agreement and take advantage that people were willing to trust them, however now that more people are seeing push back and it out and unlike before they don't have full control of all mainstream social media. As well as people no longer trusting those in establishment media to not be shills for their side. Most people are dropping IPs that goes WOKE, and the free money from DEI these companies were getting to push this woke shit isn't enough anymore. So we are seeing more and more big IPs other try to win back old fans who kept them alive beforehand or find that new audience before dying. (Though many can't return to pre-woke times due to too much of the DEI is still in their company preventing them from changing.)
